2025_11_02

Sunday Zoom 11/2/25 - More Discussion Of Epicurus' Advice For Choosing Among Pleasures And How Best To Explain This To Others

  • The original FAQ Topic
    • After I Identify Pleasure As The Guide of Life, Which Pleasures Should I Pursue?
      1. We will generally focus on Epicurus' division of the desires into natural and necessary classifications, but first, before anything else, we have to realize that these categories are contextual and cannot be described or implemented in absolute terms.
      • 1.1. "And since pleasure is the first good and natural to us, for this very reason we do not choose every pleasure, but sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time. Every pleasure then because of its natural kinship to us is good, yet not every pleasure is to be chosen: even as every pain also is an evil, yet not all are always of a nature to be avoided." Yet by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages we must form our judgment on all these matters. For the good on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good. "[Epicurus Letter to Menoeceus 129]
      1. Generally we will prioritize pursuing pleasures that are necessary for life. Therefore the first step at any particular moment of life is to confirm that you can expect your future life to be more pleasurable than painful. In almost every instance this is true, and in general it is a very small person who has more reasons for ending his life than living it. But this is not always true, as sometimes you will choose death, when the alternative of living on would be worse
      • 2.1. "[The lofty spirit] is schooled to encounter pain by recollecting that pains of great severity are ended by death, and slight ones have frequent intervals of respite; while those of medium intensity lie within our own control: we can bear them if they are endurable, or if they are not, we may serenely quit life's theater, when the play has ceased to please us."[ Torquatus in Cicero's On Ends, I:XV]
      1. After confirming that it makes sense to live on, first obtain those pleasures which are necessary for continued life. These are presumably the basics of life such as air, food, water, shelter, and the like.
      1. After obtaining the pleasures necessary for life, and after confirming that you can expect your remaining time of life to make available more pleasure than pain, consider whether the additional pleasures you choose to pursue are natural, in that they have a limit, or are unnatural, in that by their very nature you can never achieve them (such as unlimited amounts of time, fame, power, riches). This analysis allows you to forecast whether the pursuit of a pleasure is likely to lead to more pain than pleasure.
      • 4.1. The principle of the natural and necessary classification is as follows: "Nothing could be more useful or more conducive to well-being than Epicurus's doctrine as to the different classes of the desires. One kind he classified as both natural and necessary, a second as natural without being necessary, and a third as neither natural nor necessary; the principle of classification being that the necessary desires are gratified with little trouble or expense; the natural desires also require but little, since nature's own riches, which suffice to content her, are both easily procured and limited in amount; but for the imaginary desires no bound or limit can be discovered."
      1. At this point when you know that it makes sense to continue to live, and you secure the pleasures that are necessary to life, and you identify what will likely be many options for pursuing desires that will lead to more pleasure than pain, you choose from among those options to pursue the most pleasant life according to the following considerations:
      • 5.1. Remember that the "most pleasant" does not equate either to the largest quantity or the longest time.
        • 5.1.1. "And just as with food he does not seek simply the larger share and nothing else, but rather the most pleasant, so he seeks to enjoy not the longest period of time, but the most pleasant."[Epicurus Letter to Menoeceus 126
      • 5.2. Remember that all pleasures are not identical and interchangeable, because they do not all have the same intensity, last the same period of time, or affect the same aras of the body and mind.
        • 5.2.1. "PD09. If every pleasure could be intensified so that it lasted, and influenced the whole organism or the most essential parts of our nature, pleasures would never differ from one another."
      • 5.3. Remember that what others tell you is the most desirable or undesirable life is not the ultimate test of what is in fact most pleasant to you.
        • 5.3.1. PD10. If the things that produce the pleasures of profligates could dispel the fears of the mind about the phenomena of the sky, and death, and its pains, and also teach the limits of desires (and of pains), we should never have cause to blame them: for they would be filling themselves full, with pleasures from every source, and never have pain of body or mind, which is the evil of life.
      • 5.4. The ultimate test of what to pleasure pursue is reality - whether it in fact leads to the most pleasant life.
        • 5.4.1. VS71. Every desire must be confronted by this question: What will happen to me if the object of my desire is accomplished, and what if it is not?
      1. Other Reference Material:
  • This Week's Forum Thread
  • Summary By Don:
    • DaveT Let me see if I can summarize your position, and you let me know where I misinterpret or get it right before I dive headlong into another lengthy post. As I understand, you feel that:
    • The word "pleasure" is seen by the majority of people nowadays as conveying a negative activity or at the very least a self-indulgent - maybe even destructive - activity.
    • Explaining Epicurus' expansive re-definition of "pleasure" (ΗΔΟΝΗ) distracts from the deeper meaning and potential application of his philosophy to modern life.
    • Trying to get people to accept/understand that Epicurean re-definition in light of their modern sensitivities to the word "pleasure" is counterproductive.
    • It would be more productive to explain Epicureanism to newcomers without resorting to using the word "pleasure" or using phrases like "The goal of life is pleasure."
    • You would advocate for using terms more in line with "Life Itself is the Greatest Good" and avoiding using "pleasure" until, maybe, much further down the road when it is encountered in the ancient texts.
    • Would that be a fair summary?
  • Restatement By DaveT:
    • Thinking about this further, I believe Epicurus’ focus on understanding nature as the foundation for his belief system is parallel to the modern focus of science. And this includes physics, which wants to understand and apply natural laws. To paraphrase physicist Brian Greene’s statement: he is content to know that he is composed of particles of matter formed by natural processes from star formation. Since matter can only be converted to energy and vice versa, his atoms exist forever. Can’t be more Epicurean than that!
    • This seems to me to fit into the parallel concept I’m examining. Within the lifetime greatest goal of focusing on nurturing your life, there exists the means to that goal. The means are by increasing/decreasing pleasure and pain. The two are related to each other, like matter and energy; one can be converted to the other, but neither can be escaped from or done away with.
    • Life as the goal does not suffer from the truly rare exceptions of giving up one’s life for a friend or to avoid pain by suicide. Rather, it gains with the understanding of the means of nurturing life with pleasure that is totally within your personal control.
    • But back to explaining Epicureanism and focusing on a belief that life is the greatest good. That it can be a better conceptual declaration of what is the goal of life for the modern Western mind might bear out. (Again, only as a preliminary statement to anyone inquiring about it.)
    • Perhaps the above introduction should be accompanied with an explanation of the Epicurean awareness that when you are dead, you’re dead, which clarify the discussion to the goal of life is life while you have it.
    • And then, perhaps Epicurus’ observations in his Ethics might become less abstract, and clearer when expressed as: So enjoy your pleasurable thoughts and your well considered pleasurable activities. Your life deserves the best you can offer it.